@Adam Allen - nice idea!
There's a whole lot of simple yet great ideas, we just need Riq to get started on them ;)
My stance on cocos2d
(80 posts) (55 voices)-
Posted 1 year ago #
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I'm sure he'll post here eventually, but it looks like gaminghorror wasn't trying to encroach on Riq's business: http://www.learn-cocos2d.com/2010/05/linedrawing-game-starterkit-cocos2d-june-1st-2010/#comments
Posted 1 year ago # -
gaminghorror
MemberI understand and respect Ricardo and won't act against his will. All i can say is that i never intended to compete or even considered it to be a competition. Starterkits have quite different USPs and purpose. I have to consider my options now and will stay away from posting for a couple days at least.
In the meantime i politely request the removal of at least the two tags abitofcode pointed out. They, among other things, have no place being in this thread.
EDIT: I've removed the tags and abitofcodes replication of them. (Steve Oldmeadow)
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'll offer my 0.02 cents in (and more in real money!) and give my vote to:
- Adam Allen's iTunes affiliate link idea. Have a dedicated spot on the board to showcase the games, maybe with the icon? All linked to iTunes via Riq's affiliate link.
- More prominent spot for the donate link
- Ads. We all hate them when they're on other sites, but as a longtime member here, this has become 'our' website, and I'm sure many feel the same. I will gladly support ads if it means that its for the benefit of ALL of us, like it would be in this case.And finally, and this is the unpopular one, perhaps institute a license fee for published games. I know a lot of us cant afford big fees, but I will gladly pay a small. Even if its small, its still greater than $0 for Riq. If it contributes to Riq having a nice steak dinner then coding fat & happy afterwards, I'm in.
-Dan
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm not partial to either side of this but just my $.02 (which no doubt will cause me to be flamed by people who aren't looking at the facts):
1. The license for cocos2d-iphone gives anyone the right to do whatever he/she wants with the source. If you don't say up front that someone can't do something, you shouldn't slam them when they do. It says the user is hereby granted permission to deal in the software without restriction. If that's not true, then change the license. If it is true, then leave it the way it is. Either way make up your mind, you can't selectively choose to enforce your version of the license whenever you want.
2. There is no logical difference between someone taking your source code, making a game and profiting off it and taking your source code, building a starter kit or library or anything and profiting from it. If you disagree then refer to #1.
Either take other members advice here and change your profit model or change your license.
The Unity3D guys sell a commercial engine, give the base version away for free and they fully support anyone who does anything with Unity3D that abides by the license whether it's a game or an AI engine like Angry Ant has made. They do this because they know that anything that members create can only help the popularity of the engine and help grow the base. You should be doing the same.
You have an amazing engine and the most popular and professional 2D iPhone engine by far. I know this because I've been looking for a month and comparing them all. If the only way you're making money is off of your 2 downloads then you are doing something seriously wrong. You're leaving a lot of money of the table right now.
And btw, I plan on making a donation just because I know how much work and effort goes into something like this. Please take my words not as harsh criticism but as tough love.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Thanks for all this work riq ! I really enjoy using cocos2D not only because it is a powerfull and well designed framework to use, but also because of the spirit behind it. Hope I can contribute a little bit when I will understand fully the framework.
I understand that your post is not about begging for money, but like others I think you should enhance the visibilty of your store in the cocos2D site. It is just a question of visibility, it's hard to find the store and some people miss it because they simply don't know the store (donate, your softwares,...) exists . There are currently store link in the forum and the landing page but these links doesn't stand out. BTW, adds would not bother me either personally, everybody needs some money to feed its familly!
Pierre
Posted 1 year ago # -
@azaatelli - The subject of Riq's post was him promoting developers. If people are going to create and sell starter kits then Riq made it clear he will not promote those kits because they take a way from his way of making money. I don't think Riq said that people shouldn't sell starter kits either. Only that he will not promote them on the cocos2d site.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Steve Oldmeadow
Administrator@azatelli - yes, you missed the point. I'll also add though that yes, the cocos2d license allows people to do whatever they want. There is a difference between what you can legally do and what is morally right. By pointing out his situation maybe Riq will make some people reconsider the morality of their actions. For example, there is nothing stopping someone forking the entire project and us ending up with something like a Mambo Joomla situation - people have threatened this in the past over things like cocos2d not supporting MVC. Someone could do that legally but morally it would be reprehensible.
I'll also add that I believe morally a lot of people should be making much bigger donations. If you are doing work for big companies promoting brands like Lego, Tic Tac and big release movies then I think you should be donating $500 minimum. That is a drop in the ocean for those companies.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So after reviewing all of the traffic on this, I believe the issue here is that the sales of starter kits may impact Riq's bottom line. Riq should not be expected to help anyone by hosting post advertising competing products to his own. He has made an overwhelming and generous contribution to the iPhone development community. Support and respect it! I have come to the opinion that this is not the place to be discussing or promoting commercial endeavors with respect to Cocos (or any other framework for that matter). Help post and Q&A are alright, maybe even a few screenshot of ongoing projects and simple code snippets. That is just my opinion.
That all being said I believe the offender(s) were not in fact trying to do damage to this community or Riq. Boundaries are a good thing because they reduce the likelihood that anyone of us would do things here that would make us bad community members. Boundaries must be set here. I believe Riq's initial post on this thread is a start. What we don't need is to be divided and mistrustful of each other.
That is my 2 cent. Now I'll go back in my hole and write some software.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Codemattic
ModeratorWhat about an affiliate system? If I make a map editor or sprite creator or something, it gets listed prominently on a cocos tools section and Riq gets 20% vig. That way devs are encouraged to build new tools and fill in the gaps of whats needed and Riq gets his beak wet off the top. If the developer wants to talk about it in the forum he has to link to Riq's affiliate page.
Posted 1 year ago # -
robodude666
MemberI was hoping to stay out of the actual debate here, but I think I'll also toss in my 2cents.
The riq's entire post, while well written and describes the effort he puts in very well, can be completely ignored except for the last sentence. That was really the main purpose of the thread. This sentence says:
riq:
- But I won't/can't let you promote in any way whatsoever any product that competes directly with my sole source of income: The sales of Sapus Tongue and LevelSVG source code.While this doesn't describe the actions that will be taken by riq, i.e. a kind "please stop that" to legal action, it does clearly state that he will not allow products that compete directly with his source of income, i.e source code for his game and level editor. This doesn't describe whether or not this is limited to only sales made or if it includes freely released products that are similar. Riq really needs to reply to this thread and clear up what he means, as well as checkout some of the suggestions made (if he hasn't seen them yet). It would also be good to update the license if need be. Currently the license says you can do whatever the @#$^ you want with the code as long as you credit cocos2d and make a donation if you're a large company.
While I wouldn't like to see any restrictions made, it is in riq's right to apply any he sees fit to protect his source of income.
Requiring developers to provide a slice of their revenue from sales of source code or editors wouldn't be very right. An option to donate some of the revenue is acceptable, and is already allowed now anyway.
In either case, it would be good to see a response from riq. While I do not necessarily agree with some of this, I would respect his decisions whatever they might be.
-robodude666
Posted 1 year ago # -
Steve Oldmeadow
AdministratorCurrently the license says you can do whatever the @#$^ you want with the code as long as you credit cocos2d and make a donation if you're a large company.
The license has never said that. You are getting confused with the CocosDenshion license, which is my creation. Riq has never placed any restrictions on people. Also, currently, cocos2d and CocosDenshion are under MIT licenses so there are no restrictions whatsoever.
Posted 1 year ago # -
robodude666
MemberSorry. You are in fact correct. I mixed up the two licenses. The Cocos2D iPhone license is as such:
Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files (the “Software”), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:
The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.The license leaves the user completely open to do whatever he or she wants with it, as long as a copy of the license is redistributed with the software. I don't think it's fair to setup a double standard that states you can do whatever you want... as long as it doesn't hurt my bottom line. That just isn't fair.
I think other sources of income should be created such as ads, "premium" membership that gives users certain perks, affiliate system, and of course donations from warm-hearted individuals (currently in place), which would allow the license to remain the same: free & open for all.
-robodude666
Posted 1 year ago # -
Steve Oldmeadow
AdministratorI don't think it's fair to setup a double standard that states you can do whatever you want... as long as it doesn't hurt my bottom line.
Riq isn't trying to stop anybody doing anything with the source code, he is just not going to advertise products that compete with his in the forums. If you want to bury Riq that is your choice - just don't expect him to dig the grave and give you a shovel.
Posted 1 year ago # -
TouchGameDev
MemberYeah I think it's about time Riq replies. This is dumb and not helping him either.
Feel free to remove my post @gaminghorror was indeed planning on selling the kit for a price equal that of Riq's code. I have all the emails right of @gaminghorror asking me how much he should sell his kits for.
Matt Rix - Blogs can be edited.
Netiquette is like Brooklyn - if you see a crime keep your mouth shut.
I don't live in Brooklyn anymore.I am not replying anymore. Too much drama here for me and I have work to do AKA making games. Steffen you should think twice before screwing someone the next time. They might warn others too. Here is a head start... call Playmesh before they call you. Screenshots and copy are in an Attorney's possession and their files have been deleted here. I am no longer involved.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Thank you all so much for your support and your ideas. I'll study them carefully.
I believe that competition can be a good thing. This said, it is a question of ethics that is actually at stake when someone decides to sell and even intends to promote at the forum the same kind of product that I am selling and when that person couldn't have developed that product without cocos2d and my know-how. I don't think that is ethical at all.
As Steve Olmeadow stresses, one thing is the cocos2d license, and another one is the content that I can allow to be posted here. Therefore, I will protect my source of income, all the more so when faced with unethical competition. This is why I just wanted to let you know that I will most probably remove/ban/tag as spam/etc every post/link/info coming from direct competitors bearing these features.
Thank you again for your support and encouragement!
Posted 1 year ago # -
eoin
MemberOk, ignoring the dra, going on with regards to gaminghorror and touchgamedev. My €.03.
Make the licence semi-commercial. $50 per year for the licence to publish on the app store. The licence could also suggest a percentage of income above a certain threshold. Downloading and testing and playing with the code is free. Submitting fixes does not get a discount.
It needs some policing, but people could, for instance, only post in the release games sub-forum if they have paid their $50 this year. And we could be on the lookout for games that seem to be Cocos2d. And report to Apple if they are not licenced.
Riq could still sell his source code.
The point is to keep riq working on this, and to keep him relatively well paid. Why? Purely selfish reasons - this is one of the best maintained Open Source projects ever and that is because it has a clear leader.
Where are the people who have made lots of money from cocos2d. Step up to the plate!
Posted 1 year ago # -
robodude666
Member@Steve Oldmeadow:
Riq isn't trying to stop anybody doing anything with the source code, he is just not going to advertise products that compete with his in the forums. If you want to bury Riq that is your choice - just don't expect him to dig the grave and give you a shovel.I'm not trying to bash on riq, or put words in his mouth. I'm simply saying what he said can be interpreted in many different way and without riq stepping in like UseCase said and letting us know whats "kosher" we won't know whether or not it includes him not promoting content, or forcefully not allowing such content.
Posted 1 year ago # -
vutronic
MemberI've been using cocos2d for over a year, and I'm very grateful that we have Riq and the cocos2d community. I just made a donation. I will start to make regular donations using the admob revenue if there's any I recieve from two cocos2d games I currently have on the appstore ( Mars Rover, and Twilight Hero). To be honest, the donation amount will be small, we're talking about $5-$7 per month since my games are not doing very well. However, if a hundred of us developer are doing this, if you can afford, Riq will get nice source of income from cocos2d. He really deserves it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
azka
MemberRiq, you are interesting person.
I am happy, that there are still people like you are, those spend many hours, weeks, months, years and nerves on one thing, that doesnt give the highest income as u could gain for thousands of hours spent on this project.
Keep it up! We all are glad, that you lead project like this!
P.S. i have been trying to play with many engines for developing games... this is where i stopped, i just found a nice website, interesting, with all tools those i need, with wiki, with live forums where you got reply in few hours... just everything perfect...
-----> it was easy for me to start with cocos2d, even i never used Mac OS, never used to work with Obj-C!
in 3 weeks i understood 50% of scheme. thanks!!Posted 1 year ago # -
apaik
MemberRiq, I'm glad to see person like you exist "out there". Many readers are talking about paid license... I feel your pocket pain, but Many readers don't seem to realize why "openGL", "HTML", "Linux", "mySQL", etc got so popular. I like what you are doing with with your gifted knowledge.
Like many readers, I don't mind seeing an Ad. on your website. Please just don't over do it. :)
So many readers don't have time/patient to go through blog/forum to get into step-by-step jump start. Why not publish chapter by chapter eBook/pdf like ManningBooks?
Posted 1 year ago # -
@apaik Many of us are talking about a paid license, but I personally suggested riq some time ago a dual license. That's perfectly good and goes hand-in-hand with the open source philosophy. I also respect riq's decision to not opt for a dual license.
Also, the paid tech support is also another model to profit from open source projects.
What riq should not do (and I'm pretty sure he hasn't even think about it): close the access to the forums. Community support by the community should always remain open.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The idea of paid licensing is interesting, but cococs2d has just gone MIT license. Perhaps there could be components for sale instead that can be added to a cocos2d project. Check out what Push Button Engine (for flash) did:
http://pushbuttonengine.com/Posted 1 year ago # -
robodude666
MemberCJ, riq is already doing that technically. LevelSVG is a component that can be added to a cocos2d project. It's not required, but if the user wants the easy of creating levels they can purchase the optional component.
I don't mind a component-based system, as that's what a lot of game engines and software packs do. For example, 3DGameStudio and Torque offer add ons such as assets, tools, demo game source, etc. for a fee. In addition, they have different pricing models for "Indie" and "Commercial" developers... Though, I wouldn't want Cocos2D to go closed-only model. Cocos2D should remain free with other tools that can be purchased as an option.
But, that's getting a bit ahead of us. Start simple: Ads. They might be enough to support you and your family.
-robodude666
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm not really familiar with LevelSVG, but isn't that a tool?
A component would be something like a virtual joystick input (there happens to be a free open source example here: http://github.com/sneakyness/SneakyInput)
I agree cocos2d itself should remain open source and free.
This thread really has a LOT to take in. I want to point out that cocos2d != @riq. Although he started this project long ago, it is open source and contains the hard work of many contributors.
The forums, hosting, and cocoslive service, however, are provided by riq at his expense.
It would be ideal if donations covered these expenses, but I don't think that's realistic.I do think it's fair to run ads on the cocos forums and other sites.
I also think it's fair to stop providing free promotion for anything that is being sold (so promotion of free apps/games would continue).
Now assuming there is some fee charged to promote anything that isn't free, I don't think it would be fair to prohibit games/apps/tools that compete with riq's work or anyone else's.
I really like the cocos2d community, and I think we are all hard working honest people that just want to make a decent living from doing what we love.
Posted 1 year ago # -
robodude666
MemberLevelSVG is a tool, but Torque sells a lot of editors/tools that are meant to work together with their Torque engine to make games easier to build.
@riq
Could you clarify what is and is not allowed? Are you saying that if person X made any piece of software (be it a library, editor, tool, starter kit, source code, etc) that any form of promotion (i.e. mention in a post, new thread, etc.) would be deleted, and user might possibly be banned, if the piece of software was being provided at a cost (for sale)? Doesn't that EXTREMELY contradict the license that we all accepted before downloading and/or using cocos2d-iphone?If we're discussing morals here, and not licenses, I think it is more morally wrong to say "you can't compete with me, because I need to make money." Apple won't go out and sue everyone who makes an iPad case just because Apple makes their own iPad case. That wouldn't be good promotion for Apple, and it decreases the number of people who might get an iPad.
(And woops. I didn't see that riq responded to the thread 10 hours ago. I made a reply a few minutes after (without seeing his reply) stating that riq should reply -- my bad!)
Posted 1 year ago # -
I would say LevelSVG is a component, actually. It's source code you integrate with your app that knows how to read inkscape SVG files.
I don't see a contradiction with the cocos2d-iphone license - that license covers use of the source code, not use of this website.
Riq's not saying "you can't compete with me", I think he's saying "Don't come into my shop and sell your wares".
I think maybe part of the problem is that many people don't see this website as riq's 'shop' because he has taken great pains in the past to separate the two and remain editorial in these forums. I think of this website as the 'official' place to go for cocos2d-iphone stuff, and I know riq runs it, but his website (sapusmedia) is where he sells his stuff from (yes, I know there is a store link, but the actual purchasing of his stuff happens from his biz site).
Now, after the whole gh/tgd subthread happened, I went and looked at gh's site to see what all the fuss is about. I was sort of confused why it was a big issue that he is selling his thing because:
1) it does not compete with LevelSVG
2) it seems a completely different kind of game than SapusTongueSo, I assume that at some point (which I must have missed or forgotten about) he posted an announcement on these forums about the new thing he was selling.
(I know there were a whole lot of allegations made by tgd about nefarious acts gh committed, but without a much clearer description of the issues and proof (which IMO are not appropriate for a public forum), I chose to leave that aside for the purposes of this discussion.)
If I had developed some sort of sample code project that I knew there was a market for (how many people have asked about how to do line following game on these boards and elsewhere?) I can't say that last week, before this all happened, I would have thought twice about announcing it on this forum.
In my mind, it would be just another cocos2d-iphone based project, just as if I had created a commercial iPhone app with it. If I had success with it, I would donate part of my success back to the project, just as I will if I have success with any of my actual games.
Ultimately, anyone who purchased my sample project vs. riq's sample project would still be using cocos2d, still have a shot at a successful game which would _hopefully_ yield more exposure and donations back to the cocos2d-iphone project.
[to be clear, I'm speaking in theory ... I DO NOT have a sample project up for sale! :) ]
anyway, I guess to me, it means riq should be less editorial and more talkative, when appropriate, about his products in order to change how people think about these forums. But for some reason, I feel like it might be a mistake for the community as a whole to change how these forums work, which might eventually be even more harmful to riq - so I'm torn about it, and there is a good possibility what I am saying won't make sense to anyone else here!
I have another suggestion for a way to monetize:
- sell more and different stuff. LevelSVG is great, I haven't really looked at SapusTongue, but I'm sure it's great too. Perhaps it's time for a new game, or continue working on SapusTongue to keep it relevant as time goes by (maybe he already does that). Ideally, the products should stand on their own - people will want to buy "from the source" rather than from "some other guy" because riq's the expert and his stuff is the best, not because nobody else is allowed to talk about their stuff.
- also, if we add a premium membership, lets add the ability to filter people out
Posted 1 year ago # -
Late to the party again :-/
A MASSIVE thank you riq for all you've done to get cocos2d to where it is today.
Thanks to what I've learned here on these forums (from some very kind & helpful people) and using this great framework, I've started to get in a a decent amount of iphone based contract work recently, and have just made a donation from my first pay cheque. The first of many I hope!I think the donate link should be plastered on the header/menu of every page, I had to go looking for it in the store. I doubt anyone here would have a problem with that.
Also liked the idea of you advertising your products on the forums, and possibly charging others for the privilege.
And Codemattic's idea of an affiliate shop type system sounds like a great compromise, where others can build tools that benefit the community, without hurting riq's income, and potentially boosting it nicely along the way. I've seen other communities do this, and it seemed to work well for both sides.
I'm sure alot of dev's would happily sign up for premium memberships if there were private boards (but still keep the public ones), and a few other perks/site-features. Looking at the open source drupal CMS system as one possible example: http://association.drupal.org/
Riq, I hope you find time to implement some of the great ideas mentioned by others in this thread, and can get an income you deserve for steering cocos2d to where it is now!
Posted 1 year ago #
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