How's everyone doing? « cocos2d for iPhone

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How's everyone doing?

(27 posts) (15 voices)

Started 6 months ago by cjl
Latest reply from eoin

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cjl
Member

I haven't had much time for programming recently, with most of my time spent either at work or with the kids, so I haven't kept up with this forum.

I'm wondering how everyone is doing, in terms of sales. Obviously not specifics, but in general? I see some very high quality software being produced with Cocos2d, but is it getting lost in the 10,000-apps-a-week tidal wave?

I haven't put anything on the app store yet, but I have written some non-trivial games with Cocos2d for my own edification, and to amuse my four year old daughter. I still don't like Objective-C, and I'm starting to think I never will. I'm also becoming dismayed with Apple's relatively tight control over the development process.

I've spent the last few weeks getting acquainted with Java and Android, and I've found Java to be more straight-forward than Objective-C. It's more verbose, but I'm no longer confused by memory management. Eclipse is pretty good, too.

To be honest, I also really like Google Voice, and I'm disappointed in Apple not letting it be fully integrated with the iPhone.

Anyway, I started learning to program -- and to program for the iPhone -- for the fun of it, and it's been fun, but now I'm thinking that I might have more fun with Android.

So, how's everyone doing?

Posted 6 months ago #
jd
Member

I come from a scripting language background and I've done plenty of java. I found Objective-C (via cocos2d) and Xcode to be amazing, clean and simple. I was an Apple hater most of my life because you pay for form more than function, but the iPhone platform and how Apple has opened it up to developers and then provided a storefront for them is great. I'll take the minor annoyances that come with that process.

True, you need some sort of marketing to be successful today on the app store but you'll need that on Android soon as well if not already. I've been totally slacking lately myself but I still think the app store is the best gig out there - even for indie developers. Good luck.

Posted 6 months ago #
slipster216
Moderator

I'm from a C, C++ background, but have done AS3, Java, MaxScript, Mel, VBScript, JavaScript, and perhaps a dozen more I've forgotten or were proprietary in nature. In general, I don't like objective C very much. Most of apples API's are very clean, but the language itself is full of gotcha's, unknown context, and half working abstractions. Worse still is Xcode, which is a very poor environment compared to working in Visual Studio (with Visual Assist) or Eclipse (which is wonderful).

My latest game got rejected, though I'll try changing it a bit and resubmitting when I get around to it. However, I just started http://www.stuffedturkeyapps.com with a friend, which is going very well so far (we have maybe 20+ games signed up). Figuring out how to bundle multiple apps together and give them their own sandbox to run in has been an interesting lesson in compiler options, code injection, and the inner workings of the Objective C runtime. It's pretty ugly down there, with lots of exception cases and things that only work some of the time.

And while I don't like Apple's blurry lines of acceptance or the lotto like aspects of the App Store, it's still the best game in town.

Posted 6 months ago #
AkumaStreak
Member

I just wanted to chime in regarding my love of Objective-C. I come from a C/C++ background, and for gamedev, Objective-C really feels like the best of both worlds to me. I feel that people are less likely to make typical C++ mistakes in Objective-C (as inheritance/bootstrapping instances is simpler in Objective-C), and I really love the mem. management model that's in place. That said, it does take some getting used to initially. The Smalltalk-ish call convention, for ex.

Posted 6 months ago #
Joe
Member

C was one of the first programming languages I learned, after BASIC and 68000 assembler. As a Java programmer you can make some good money as a contractor. But being an iPhone indie game developer is so much more fun. Personally I prefer Objc over Java. But I guess it is more a matter of taste. For future projects I will give Lua a try in the hope to bring the development time down.

@slipster216 Do you already know how you will price the bundle? Don't you think that will add to the price pressure which is already in the App Store?

I love working with cocos2d. And the opportunities Apple gave us through the App Store are just amazing. The main problem I have is not being a marketeer. And I guess that means not selling games ...

Yes, good luck to all of you.

Posted 6 months ago #
malphigian
Member

I was mostly a Actionscript 3 and Java coder before doing my first iPhone project. I like some things about Objective C, but overall I still really prefer classic C curly brace-style syntax. That's really more of an aesthetic thing though. I've had no issues with memory management.

That said, a well designed Java API is certainly easier to code in for a first time programmer. I think garbage collection is a very good thing for newbies to have. Starting with Android might not be a bad idea, but just be aware that the Android market is even harder to make money in currently than the App Store by all accounts.

As far as my apps. Our Monkey Preschool games are doing great, currently holding the #2 and #3 spot in the Games > Kids subcategory (although one of those is currently featured in "What's Hot" and will doubtless fall off). I've moved back to do flash games for a while, but will probably return to the App Store sooner or later.

I haven't put anything on the app store yet, but I have written some non-trivial games with Cocos2d for my own edification, and to amuse my four year old daughter.

Run with what your 4 year old likes. Parents buy apps for the kids. I say this even though you might be competition :P

Posted 6 months ago #
slipster216
Moderator

@joe: Perhaps, but we're really just playing the game here too. I will say, however, that I've noticed prices creeping up again now. The $1.99 and $2.99 games are really common, when everything was 99cents for a while. The real problem is that your app is basically invisible if you're not on a top list, so regardless of how many apps there are, only a few hundred will actually be earning money at any given time. So if racing to the pricing bottom will get your app in that list, or splitting revenues between a bunch of developers will do it, it makes sense to do. Not the market I want, but it's what we have.

@malphigian: The parents market is a good one to be in; I made a few kids apps for my daughter, and they're some of my more successful ones sales wise. The iDevice is just so much easier for a 2-4 year old to use than a traditional computer. My daughter started playing with it when she was only a year and a half old, and actually learned a fair bit from grinding puzzle/alphabet games. Should your apps stop selling, look us up as we're planning a kids bundle in the future; I think it's likely to be a big seller (with a long tail).

In regards to ObjC and other languages, I generally prefer to write in higher level languages than C/C++, but so many of them are riddled with strange compromises and bad designs (not the C++ is by any means perfect). It's often because they evolved, but I think in ObjC's case it was more that the machines of the day weren't fast enough to actually do the proper abstraction. For instance, I'm sure the choice of doing reference counting but not reference tracking was made for performance reasons. However, it makes debuging memory issues a nightmare; some memory gets released or retained when it shouldn't be, and the debugger gives you no real information. If they had reference tracking, you could just see what objects were retaining that object (instead of just a count).

Additionally, the whole alloc/allocWithZone/retain/release/autorelease thing is really messy and conceptually complex, IMO. It requires that people both understand and adhere to the same coding conventions, without actually forcing those conventions. And autorelease reminds me of why they put a rear-view camera in the prius; the car had been designed so you couldn't really see out of the back of it, so they stuck a camera in there rather than changing the body design.

Posted 6 months ago #
redsky
Member

sales are dead for me. i spent months of weekends working on my first game (Relix) and i sell about 3-5 a day. at this rate, i won't recover what i paid the art guy.

i'm playing with a unity iphone trial now and seeing how that goes before i pick my next project. ive got a few passion projects id like to work on but its hard to get motivated after relix flopped so bad

i posted to at least 20 iphone sites/forums, gave out 100 promo codes and couldn't ever get anything going

Posted 6 months ago #
Joe
Member

@malphigian Yes, those games really look great. Unfortunately my daughter has yet to learn English. Let me know when you localize your game to German and I will grab a copy.

@slipster216 Can you provide some links to your apps in the store? I made the same experience with my kids. Funny thing is when I'm sitting in front of my laptop, sometimes my 3 year old daughter comes over and starts to tap and swipe on my screen, because she is so accustomed to use the iDevice :)

And about the bundles. I agree with you, it does make sense to accept the market as it is and start to play after the rules given.

Posted 6 months ago #
mhussa
Member

@redsky: if its any consolation my 3.5 year old son really likes it. The fact that you can swipe anywhere on the screen and it moves the active block in the right direction really is, well, child's play. Its a nice game, pity it isn't doing better at the moment. You have an asset there which you should be able to monetise somehow. Maybe do a christmas/easter/eid/hanukkah/diwali version which has annual repeat sale value ;)

I'm a C/C++/Unix/Java developer mostly and recently discovered Ruby (really nice OO dynamic language, thankyou Rails). Objective C is "interesting", I could never say I like its simplicity like I can with Ruby. I can get the job done with it, but it's but not my language of choice.

My view on Android is that Google seem to be aiming more towards the enterprise user with its Nexus. Having seen the apple iphone enterprise licensing requirements I think they may be able to dominate that space with more liberal licensing terms. From a consumer/toy/games perspective there will be a market but I doubt it will be anywhere near as big as the iDevice ecosystem. The iphone is sublime and its going to need more than a me too phone to beat it.

I'm personally really not keen on supporting multiple android devices but if Google make the nexus the 'single' primary reference system for android and it sells well, it might be worth writing something for it. Time will tell.

Posted 6 months ago #
Codemattic
Moderator

Not sure how this thread became an ObjectiveC thread. I think ObjC/IB/Cocoa is just fantastic for GUI Applications building - but for games its not a great fit. Hopefully with OS4 we will get automatic garbage collection which will make it much easier for some devs.

As for the OP I too would like to hear how people are doing in the App Store. Mostly I see many devs here, who put out games I really like and have fun playing, and it turns out they dont get any sales. Getting featured by Apple may be your only real shot, and even that doesnt guarantee you will get sales. Tough market.

Posted 6 months ago #
mhussa
Member

very interesting post:

http://gamesfromwithin.com/making-a-living-barely-on-the-iphone-app-store

Posted 6 months ago #
Codemattic
Moderator

@mhussa yes, especially since he was able to use in-app purchases to take an app that was not doing well and make it into a success - or at least more of one!

Posted 6 months ago #
Matt Rix
Member

I come from a mostly AS3 background, but I'm really enjoying Objective C for the most part. I think the whole property/synthesize system works really well, and makes up for the fact that the language is way too verbose(mostly because you're essentially naming arguments twice when you define a method).

AS3 is a fantastic language with garbage collection and all that, but I actually like the retain/release/autorelease system in ObjC. I think some people think it's much more complicated than it is, so they get afraid of it, but it's actually REALLY simple. I don't see any reason to ever switch to garbage collection, especially on a mobile device. The main thing I hate is having to use Xcode(I wish I could use Eclipse), and having to use a Mac. To go off on a huge tangent, OSX is a decent OS compared to Windows XP, but feels ancient and outdated compared to Windows 7 IMHO.

As for sales, even with the top-heavy App Store, I still think you'll make way more money here than on any of the other competing platforms. I don't know about you guys, but I think 1/3 people I meet on a daily basis has either an iPhone or iPod touch. It's cool to be able to say "hey you should get my app". On the other hand, I think I only know one person with an Android phone.

Posted 6 months ago #
Codemattic
Moderator

"I think 1/3 people I meet on a daily basis has either an iPhone or iPod touch."

Informal observation, but it seems like everyone on the NYC subway has either a Blackberry or iPhone/iPodTouch (or a regular feature-phone.) I think Palm has done some really innovative stuff with their WebOS, but Ive yet to see a Pre in anybody's hands. Android has a number of advantages over iPhoneOS, but we will see how that holds up after this month (iPhoneOS 4 and tablet/slate announcements)

Also, there are a ton of good ebook readers, but Ive only seen people with Kindles. Its interesting how people tend to coalesce around one or two "winners".

Posted 6 months ago #
Codemattic
Moderator

"OSX is a decent OS compared to Windows XP"

Im a Mac user, but even I see the Mac GUI as very inconsistent and long in the tooth. Lots of things I thought would get fixed never have. I worry that Apple has had so much success with iPhoneOS, and their Mac OS share is stable, that theyre no longer investing as much energy in to the MacOS/GUI.

Posted 6 months ago #
Matt Rix
Member

Yeah I hate to be the whiny "OSX sucks" guy, because I really do think it's got a ton of potential... but right now there are so many problems and so little flexibility. It feels like you've gotta use your computer the EXACT way Apple wants you to, or you'll have an awful experience. I think Finder is probably at the core of why things are so bad. It constant feels like it's trying to make things as hard as possible, and it feels sooooo outdated, especially if you compare it to Windows Explorer in Win 7. On the other hand, I've got some hope for Apple, because I believe that without-a-doubt iPhone OS is the best piece of software they've ever written.

PS: If the next version of OSX doesn't have a revamped Finder, I might just go crazy. ;)

Posted 6 months ago #
jharkey
Member

I agree that Finder is old and needs updating. I barely use it anymore though. I've found that Spotlight servers all my file finding and application launching needs and is faster than navigating through Finder to a certain folder. I barely use the Dock anymore either just because of the habit to use Spotlight is embedded into me now.

I use Finder for moving files back and forth in different folders, and to move files to the Trash, but I use Spotlight to find and open those folders.

I haven't used Windows 7 too much yet. I didn't really notice any updates in the Explorer since Vista though. What's new and good there?

Posted 6 months ago #
slipster216
Moderator

Finder blows some serious chunks; another thing that annoys me is the top menu bar. I might have 7 apps on the screen, but before I can access many of their features I have to click on the window of the app I want to be in focus.

I hadn't used an apple produce since the Apple II, but had heard so many good things about the mac UI that I was really surprised at how bad some of the basics were. I think Apple often gets it's good UI reputation from it's apps, not it's OS. Many of the applications they create are wonderful examples of providing the features 90% of users need in an upfront and simple manner. It's just too bad they don't apply that mindset to the basics of the OS.

Posted 6 months ago #
cjl
Member

Well, this thread has come pretty far from where it started. I appreciate all the feedback, even the off-topic stuff.

Anyway, I wasn't asking how sales are because I want to make money writing games. I'm writing games for the fun of it, and because it allows me to share my favorite hobby with my daughters. They are only two and four, but I was only five or six when my dad brought home a TRS-80. I've been hooked on computers ever since, mostly as a user, but recently trying to learn how to program.

The good news (and the bad news) is that my 'day' job is so intellectually demanding, I have very little mental energy left at the end of the day for programming.

I've written some fun stuff for the girls in Python / Pygame, and the cool thing is I can look at what I've written a month later and still remember what I was thinking at the time. Not so with Objective C, in spite of the simplifications provided by Cocos2d.

I've messed around with PHP and C / C++, I've written some larger 'real' projects in Javascript and Python, and I've even written a somewhat popular (but out of date) Django tutorial (www.instantdjango.com). I've always avoided Java because everyone seems to universally hate it, but so far I like it, and I'm able to 'read' it pretty easily. Maybe the Java language isn't that bad, it's just all the enterprise crapola that people hate? I don't know. What I'd really like is to learn and use one programming language for phone and desktop games projects, and it looks like I could do that with Java.

OK -- now I'm off topic, too. I figure most of my projects are just for me and my girls, but occasionally maybe I'll try to sell something. Popular wisdom says you'll make more money with iPhone software than with Android, but what I'm guessing -- and was trying to ask in an indirect way -- is that most games aren't selling squat. So, if my games aren't going to sell squat anyway, maybe I'll just go with Android, and not have to deal with all the Apple stuff that I find so distasteful. Anybody want my 8-core Mac Pro? 99% of the time it's booted into Windows 7.

Anyway, I've decided to spend some time with Java and the Android SDK, and see how it goes. It actually looks like there's some recent momentum behind the Android port of Cocos2d, so maybe I'll give that a shot.

Echoing multiple replies above, my girls are absolute wizards with the touchscreen interface of the iPhone, but now can't keep their fingers off my monitors, which kind of drives me crazy.

Posted 6 months ago #
Matt Rix
Member

@cjl This may seem like a suggestion out of left field, but have you tried Flash at all? It's completely free to develop for, and AS3 is one of the best languages around. It's perfect for making 2D games. You wouldn't even need Flash CS4 at all, but if you can get over the pretty steep learning curve(and price), it is (IMHO) the best 2D graphics/animation software out there, and the integration with AS3 is awesome. With Flash you can reach a broad audience, and you could even make a (tiny) amount of money if you REALLY wanted too. Did I mention how rapid development is? Anyway, for the free route, check out FlashDevelop: http://www.flashdevelop.org/ Oh, and soon(ish) you'll be able to publish iPhone games with Flash, and it already works on basically every other smartphone.

@jharkey I actually completely skipped Vista, so I don't know what's different from that, but to pick one thing, I think the address bar is brilliant. It's selectable as text, AND you can click specific folders in the path. Win 7 also has a spotlight/quicksilver-ish feature if you press the Windows key that seems to work surprisingly well.

Posted 6 months ago #
gaminghorror
Member

@cjl:
"The good news (and the bad news) is that my 'day' job is so intellectually demanding, I have very little mental energy left at the end of the day for programming."

I had the same problem when i was working on computer games professionally. Now that i'm an Indie (and contractor) it's much easier for me to channel that creative energy and not waste it on meetings and database maintenance and other people's problems. ;)

"Anybody want my 8-core Mac Pro? 99% of the time it's booted into Windows 7."

Funny. Ever since i got my Mac mini, i rarely boot my Windows computer anymore. And no, i'm not running virtualized or otherwise Windows on my Mac at all. It's just i don't use my Windows machine for much else than watching videos or - that one time in the last 6 months - to program a tool in C#. I never imagined i could almost solely live on a Mac and breathe OS X air. But now i do. Heck, i even run regular backups now!!! :D

@all:
In response to Noel Llopis' numbers post on Flower Garden i put up some of my own numbers. Well, one of my own stats and the rest is collected from interviewing other iPhone game developers. I hand picked them after having had a look at their app, contacted them by mail and in 50% of the case got a response. Here's the short summary:
http://www.gaminghorror.net/steffenj/flower-garden-numbers/

In addition our game "Black Hole" will be released by Chillingo soon. The core team was 4 people plus external art and audio. We mostly did it to pitch the company we wanted to get funded but unfortunately the talks were dragging along and in the end we had to scrap the idea. But the game got really, really good and addictive and it did open some doors, most notably to Chillingo of course. It's very likely going to be a Crystal launch title. Even though the contract won't allow me to talk specifics i can at least let you know how it's doing in relative terms. I'll post about it in a month or two. I'm really anxious to find out how much of a difference it makes if you have a publisher doing all the marketing for you.

I won't comment on the programming language, that stuff gets tedious. But an observation and recommendation: if you really want to hear sales numbers from a bunch of programmers, don't mention any programming languages in the same post! Just a hint. ;)

As for Flash: check out the PushButton Engine: http://pushbuttonengine.com/
It seems like a good starting point.

Posted 6 months ago #
Codemattic
Moderator

@gaminghorror those are some not-horrible sales on your article. Its too bad you cant show links to the games. But still thats a good sign.

@cjl yeah I remember programming on the TRS-80. Good times.

@slipster216 "I hadn't used an apple produce since the Apple II" I guess an Apple would be produce wouldnt it?

I learned basic on the TRS-80, machine code/asm on the Apple ][+, and Pascal on the toaster Mac.

Posted 6 months ago #
cjl
Member

@all

Thanks again for all the feedback. I'm going to keep investigating different options, and see where it leads me. I've decided to do one more 'big' personal project in Objective-C, and see if it's any easier this time.

It's too bad I can't do everything with Python...if I was hard-core, which I'm not, I would figure out something like this guy:

http://www.philhassey.com/blog/2010/01/05/seahorse-adventures-loading-tgas-and-more/

I guess I should also check out C++ / SDL, because it looks like that's what Palm is using for it's native development kit:

http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1850&Itemid=20

Posted 6 months ago #
pabloruiz55
Member

As for myself, my game didn't sell enought to get a check, but i am doing just fine getting paid for programming games for other people. I mean, i earn as much money as from my day job, and only working 2 to 4 hours a day.

I am still waiting for a great idea to come to me that i can turn into an excellent game :P

Posted 6 months ago #
exorcyze
Member

@cjl - I've had apps on the store for over a year now. There were ups and downs - during some spikes for releases / updates we were seeing $2-$3k / month. After that period waned it's more around $200-$300 / month with very few sales per day.

When I offered a lite version of eMaze, I was consistently getting 50-100 downloads per day of it and based off sales of the full version it seemed to have about a 2-3% conversion rate pretty consistently. That has unfortunately dropped tremendously very recently.

I have not done any promotion for any of the titles, none of them got featured or got any higher on top 100 lists than around 30-40 ( IE, not on the first page of top 25 for a category ). So given those factors, I'm pretty happy that I can do something on the side that I have a lot of fun with and get some residual income with.

It's almost too bad that they "fixed" the updates not being able to bump things onto recent lists again as it was really the only way to get things noticed again if they weren't initially. I'm guessing that there were too many people just gaming the system though, releasing excessively minor updates to the apps to flood the lists. I also think they should crack down on the 500 versions of a single game released at a time ( all the "* Wars" style games with different amounts of starting points for the game ). From a users perspective I find it frustrating that I have to wade past 2 pages of the same game - especially since they have in-app purchases now.

Regarding obj-c as a language : I started with this before the NDA was lifted, so my learning curve was very high. It's not very similar to any other languages I have worked with before. However, I can now say that I genuinely enjoy Obj-C as a language, and there are many things about it I now think are great approaches ( that I used to think were really odd, like categories and protocols ).

In the end ( especially now with all the resources to help learning ) I would vote that it's definitely worth the effort. I'm a big proponent of the right tool for the job and hacking other languages to do the job that one is already perfectly in place for feels lazy to me. I have a flash background and like AS3 as a language but strongly dislike the idea of creating native apps for iPhone using it. Plus learning new things keeps you sharper and helps open up other neural pathways, and can also teach you things that you can possibly apply to other languages - so I view it as a win/win.

And of course, if you have any problems while trying to tackle a larger project there are great communities ( like here and iphonedevsdk ) that have lots of people willing to help!

=)

Posted 6 months ago #
eoin
Member

Listening to the arguments here I think that in-App purchases are the way to go for games, and other things. In fact games with lots of levels could force the user to buy his way to the next level - and if the game is addictive enough he will ( this being an easier option than quitting the app, going to the store, and looking for the Pro version - the risk there is that he finds another game to start on while looking for yours).

The app economy is going to settle down a bit I think. There is plenty of work - an iPhone app is a bit like a website, a necessity for companies even if created at a loss - but independnet developers will have to start making a buck or get out. So the number of games will probably start to taper off.

When that happens people will start to realise that stuff needs to be paid for. I thought that an $1 app would be to the user as much a barrier as a free app - I was wrong. Even pressing a button to spend a $1 freaks out some people, and yet they spend that on items with less value every day - that extra coke, that $1 extra on the tip because it was in the pocket. I find that weird.

But it is what it is.

Posted 6 months ago #

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