[AppStore] So, no more updates in "Release date" lists?

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[AppStore] So, no more updates in "Release date" lists?

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Started 2 years ago by crmagicxxx
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crmagicxxx
Member

I got one update approved yesterday, changed dates as always, but it didn't show in "new" lists. So after reading various forums I see there is no more updates in "Release Date" lists...

So, what's your opinion on this? Will it hurt us small developers? I can already see bunch of new "old" apps/games, that go as v2.*, v3.* instead of regular updates... Looks like to me that Apple just made temporary solution that will be messed up again very soon...

And as always, no official response from Apple. Some time ago, when I criticized the way Apple care about us small developers, someone told me how they're actually very good to us, providing us all the tools and free marketing to make money. Now, more than ever, it looks to me that we're just their "tools" for making money. Pros to small group of developers that actually benefited from this concept...

Edit (few links):
https://devforums.apple.com/thread/32599?tstart=0
http://www.iphonedevsdk.com/forum/business-legal-app-store/32805-release-dates-messed-up-again.html
http://www.iphonedevsdk.com/forum/business-legal-app-store/32936-dark-tidings-updates-may-not-appear-release-date-list-anymore.html
http://www.iphonedevsdk.com/forum/business-legal-app-store/32937-inside-info-apple-just-shot-itself-us-too.html

Posted 2 years ago #
Codemattic
Moderator

Interesting. On one hand when you put out a new release it wont get buried quite as much under all those updates! On the other hand if you make a significant update it will be harder to get people to see it. Developers were flooding the store with trivial "updates" just for the visibility.

I think Apple has created a revolutionary store for small developers. ** - they are near impossible to work directly with or contact or get feedback or give feedback. Apple givith and they taketh away. And the economics of the store now is such thats its brutal for everyone except a handful of crafty and lucky developers.

Im curious if you have ideas on how you would change it to be fairer and more profitable for developers?

Posted 2 years ago #
MikeSz
Member

personally I think this is rubbish. and not gonna change much

in my oppinion the biggest problem is with the release/update spam. there is simply too much of apps there and most of them are... lets just say not much quality in them. so yeah, this thing will reduce it as there will be no incentive in making tons of updates that do nothing, but it's gonna hurt us. badly

I think that the best way would be to charge for submission. say 20-50$. this would achieve same goal but wouldnt hurt us that much

and yeah - I certainly can imagine a huge wave of v1, v2, v3 and so on

Posted 2 years ago #
Codemattic
Moderator

@MikeSz earlier we actually had a discussion about charging - I agree with you - I think probably the best would be for each developer to get a certain number of free submissions and anything over that they have to pay a fee. The fee would go to hiring reviewers, so the review process could scale up as more developers made apps - and it would prevent update spamming.

Posted 2 years ago #
cublah
Member

It is possible this is just temporary and someone has broken something, when you look at puzzle releases and look at the release date there is 2 apps out of order 1 on the 6th Nov and one on the 13th Nov!!!!!!!!!!

Posted 2 years ago #
Mitch Lindgren
Member

I think this change sucks. It's not really going to solve the spam issue, because developers like this asshole are a much bigger issue than update spam, and preventing updates from showing up in the new release lists will just encourage them. Why bother to improve your existing application when you can release a re-skinned version of it as a new app and get more exposure?

Besides the fact that it won't help the spam, it completely fucks developers like me. My app didn't get much exposure at all when it was first released, and I was hoping that content updates would help me in that regard. Now I have basically no incentive to improve my app. I'm still going to finish and release the update I've been working on (and it's fairly big), but after that... why bother? I'm about ready to give up on the app store. It's not worth the time and effort for me.

Posted 2 years ago #
GameBit
Member

I think Apple did good thing.
1) Update spam was bad thing.
2) Review times was long because everyone was spamming updates.
3) It will push released games be more polished.

They could make another tab in appsote - "recently updated". So everyone would be happy.

Posted 2 years ago #
crmagicxxx
Member

@codemattic

Im curious if you have ideas on how you would change it to be fairer and more profitable for developers?

Well, I don't think anymore when Apple is at question :)

@cublah
I don't think it's temporary, or at least if Apple doesn't change its mind. There is pretty logical explanation for all those "future" release dates. As you know, before recent changes, the release date was the lower date between the date you set and the date Apple approved your app. So if you set the date to Jan 1st, 2010. and Apple approved your app on Nov 10th, 2009. then in AppStore your app would be released under Nov 10th. That worked pretty well for new apps (not updates). So now Apple just copied that date set in iTunesConnect by mistake and not the actual approval date. So, it's just cosmetic glitch, but it's actually correct order of things...

Posted 2 years ago #
crmagicxxx
Member

@GameBit

1) I agree
2) I agree :)
3) I don't agree. Every real spammer will just force new versions instead of updates, because they didn't make all those updates because of their users, but because of themselves. So they don't care about their user base (which will be lost with new version), they just care about some more attention.

And I heard they will not make "recently updated" lists.

Only good thing I can think of, is if Apple will actually compare your "old" and "new" version and decide if they'll approve your new app based on number of actual changes. So, in the end, app store review times wouldn't be less at all if they take this seriously. They'll actually need more time to compare new versions and decide if they'll publish them at all, or the whole thing is just a temporary pause for real spammers...

Posted 2 years ago #
edisonslabs
Member

"@MikeSz earlier we actually had a discussion about charging - I agree with you - I think probably the best would be for each developer to get a certain number of free submissions and anything over that they have to pay a fee. The fee would go to hiring reviewers, so the review process could scale up as more developers made apps - and it would prevent update spamming."

Completely agree with Codemmatic here. The problem is there's no limit on the submissions. Once there is a limit, spam would drop. Quality of submissions would also improve.

Posted 2 years ago #
ImagineNET
Member

Hi,

I don't understand why Apple don't send a message to developpers when they are doing a major change on the store. Sometimes, their ideas are very strange! eg ranking the new apps by Alphabetical Order.

In any case, I am not thinking this new rule is a good rule:

1) Developers will stop to upgrade their product.
2) Developers will release old product as a new product.
3) Apps Quality will be decrease.

In any case, this market is completely saturated. For a new product, the average of the sales is very low during the first week. So, with this rule your game should be death after one week!

Posted 2 years ago #
slipster216
Moderator

Here's the thing, from their point of view and the consumer point of view this is how the app store should have worked all along. Updates on the new release list was always pretty stupid, but quite frankly it's one of the only easy/reliable/measurable way to promote your game.

When all is said and done, I tend to agree with ImagineNet, in that spam developers will simply create more of the same applications under different names. Meanwhile, honest developers will now have a single day of exposure before sinking to oblivion unless Apple graces them with a feature spot. Based on my experience, almost any app will sell 20-40 copies on an update day, which for developers with tons of crappy apps can add up to real income.

The real problem is that apple needs to change the design of the app store so you can actually find the good product inside of it, and avoid the current 'app of the moment' syndrome. Genius sucks, and isn't a viable solution because the links between which apps I want are not as simple as which types of music I like. Instead, what the app store needs is real search capabilities (right on the phone).

For instance, I would love to be able to see the top rated apps (with at least some number of ratings) by category. I'd love to see the latest apps to cross this criteria as well. This would cause all kinds of apps I missed to bubble to the surface. Also, all of the 'top' lists should not be limited to 50 or 100 apps. I'd love to see the history of the top lists as well (say, top 100 of every month for the last 12 months).

Posted 2 years ago #
UseCase
Member

I was looking forward to my update of MotionInk to make the release list as my first release missed the listing because I goofed the release date vs submission date switch over. I do agree that the app store is hard use to find things that you would probably buy. I am hoping that Apple is working on an update that will put all of our whining to rest.

Posted 2 years ago #
ob1
Member

I guess what I will say it not very different from slipster216.

The good point with that is that new app might have more times to get noticed in the new releases list.

The bad point is that updates were one of the only ways left to get an app noticed. I think this will push more and more cheating for the TOP places.

In my opinion, Apple really needs to add more ways to promote apps. Maybe replace the tops altogether with recommendations like Amazon's ones, which work incrediblty well for me.

Posted 2 years ago #
jptsetung
Member

Franckly speaking nobody can tell if there is really a solution to make everybody happy when there are so many new apps submitted everyday. Apple should try to encourage good apps and good developers. I think they should create a kind of trust rank on each developer entity, and promote those apps.

For the updates not showing in the new releases list, I don't think it will changes- things a lot. The big update I made on Moonlights a few weeks ago, was almost invisible in the app store, and didn't generate any additional sales. It doesn't encourage to make updates.

Posted 2 years ago #
slipster216
Moderator

jptsetung; that may depend on your sales and categories. Moonlights got a fair bit of press and promotion, so I'd imagine a bad day for you sales wise is very different than a bad day for most apps. I spend a few weeks doing the constant update (even if no code changes) thing on a few apps to measure it; the difference was making $60 a week vs $6. I'd imagine those spam dev's make quite a bit off of the old behavior, as some of them have hundreds of apps to do this with.

As for additional time on the release list; due to the large number of crap apps coming out each day I don't think it'll make a difference. An average day now see's several hundred new apps; so your time on that list is extremely limited anyway..

Posted 2 years ago #
ob1
Member

Well, two things.

One of my updates was released just before the cut off, and we made twice as much sales as during our best previous update. So we will see if it doesn't give a bit more time on the newly released list.

And normal updates used to give us a x5 to x10 boost for a short time, so it's not irrelevant.

Posted 2 years ago #
cublah
Member

You know this change was inevitable but this kills it for us people who do legitimate updates (bug fixes and feature additions) When I release an update my weekly amount goes from approx $500 to $800 (approx 60%) do several updates on all your apps and the percentage goes up, so it is a big deal to us small developers. The people who ruin it for us are the people who release 200 app updates for all the crap apps they have.

I have a major update I am working on for Ballz!-Pro which includes multiplayer and new modes the only way I justify this is that I will get new users and extra income for my time, without that extra income I might as well release a new app, this is not going to be pretty!!!

Posted 2 years ago #
Codemattic
Moderator

Its too bad Apple cant do a judgment call on which updates are worth getting a bump and which are non-update updates

Posted 2 years ago #
Juntaou
Member

Personally it saddens me to see this kind of update, as I like many others planned their games around doing many releases with new content for further exposure, however from apple's stand point and the consumer's stand point it probably was a good move. As much as I wish it was, it isn't apple's job to provide cheap/free advertising for our products. Again it sucks because I was planning on adding new level packs and whatnot, but it really isn't apple's job to do that. Also this might actually be a blessing as well. Because imagine if they had kept it the same way once the flash apps come over. There could be millions of flash apps getting bumped every 2 weeks because there was a "code improvement" or a new level or whatever. Your app would be tossed off the new list with in a matter of minutes(not that that isn't what happens now).

@Codemattic It is too bad there is no way to Apple couldn't make that judgement call for big updates or whatever they deem as bump worthy as that seems like it would make everyone happy.

One more thing is that I'm not sure how helpful spamming new versions will be. It might get you a couple more sales, but it won't toss you in the top 100 list. In fact it will probably hurt more than help because each version of your game will be competing against itself...

Posted 2 years ago #
Mitch Lindgren
Member

@Juntaou "As much as I wish it was, it isn't apple's job to provide cheap/free advertising for our products."

No, but having paid $99 to get into their developer program, I expect SOMETHING in return. So far Apple has done nothing whatsoever for me. And please don't say "bandwidth costs/credit card processing/etc" because that's more than covered by the 30% they take off the top of sales. I'm not saying my app should get front page exposure just because I paid that fee, but it'd be nice if they weren't actively fostering the kind of economy that makes it very hard for independent developers to compete.

I know that from Apple's perspective it doesn't matter, and it's unlikely that consumers will see it either, but I feel their policies are one reason the app store is currently so full of crap, and that things will only get worse as time goes on.

Also, with regards to spamming multiple versions of apps being counterproductive because they'll be competing against each other, I don't think that's really the case. It's true that you're spreading yourself more thinly, but having a greater presence on the app store gives you more opportunity to cross promote, and the likelihood that people will see your apps increases simply due to the number you have out there. Again, take a look at all the apps this guy has. I remember reading a post a while back by either him or a similar dev stating that he made more than $100,000 per year from the app store. He explicitly stated that the best strategy to make money off the app store is to release as many apps as possible and put as little work as possible into each app released so you can get them out the door fast.

Posted 2 years ago #
ob1
Member

I think a good idea would be to do like some dating sites do. Give developers the possiblity to "bump" their apps in the releases list or something once a month whenever they want.

This would remove the need to submit fake updates and such, and would still allow developpers to get their applications noticed when they need it (important new features, promotion, seasonal interest like Xmas).

@Juntaou As Mitch already said, first I expect Apple to do something to earn the money I give them. And the problem is not that they have to advertise my product. The problem is that they will advertise some products based on some unknown and mainly random criteria (features, TV ads, etc.) and not advertise others, while we all paid for the same subscription as far as I know.

Posted 2 years ago #
SmallMike
Member

I'm having trouble making sense of all this.

Does anyone know how this will affect new applications? I have a client who is waiting on approval for a new application. I had told them to change the release date to the date of the approval email when they get it.

Will this still work properly for new applications?

Posted 2 years ago #
natanavra
Member

@SmallMike, yes it will work for new application.

The problem is that updates will no longer give you any visibilty...

~ Natanavra.

Posted 2 years ago #
jptsetung
Member

@SmallMike, as far as I've understood on my readings on other forums, now you don't have to change the release date for NEW apps, it's automatic now (but it will not hurt if you change it).

Posted 2 years ago #
edisonslabs
Member

@jpsetung I'm assuming more than one dev confirmed this? BTW, which forums have you obtained this info from?

Posted 2 years ago #
sserye
Member

It is here:

https://devforums.apple.com/message/140238#140238

Posted 2 years ago #
Matt Rix
Member

"No, but having paid $99 to get into their developer program, I expect SOMETHING in return. So far Apple has done nothing whatsoever for me. "

What about all of the free developer tools? Sorry but $99 is dirt cheap for this sort of thing.

Posted 2 years ago #
SciFiDad
Member

It fits into the bigger picture (or fear) that I see Apple making moves to help out the big devs, your EAs and Gamelofts. Decreasing the usefulness of the new releases list means users will have to rely more heavily on Apple's Featured content, and on the Genius feature.

This benefits big devs, and those that are lucky enough to get featured. Small devs that don't make the featured lists, will get one shot at exposure per app, then go hide under a rock.

New release lists will be even more spammy looking than they already are (with the "AAA" app naming due to the idiotic alpha sort they use on the new release list) because spam devs will name their apps "A1 Spam App", "A2 Spam App", "A3 Spam App". And so on. It already is started to look kinda geo-cities, the whole app spamming feels very un-Apple to me. Wish they'd put more thought into it than they are.

Posted 2 years ago #
Mitch Lindgren
Member

"What about all of the free developer tools? Sorry but $99 is dirt cheap for this sort of thing."

Not to be rude, but are you kidding? We developers are the reason the iPhone is so successful. If you don't believe me, go look at any iPhone ad. They don't even advertise the features of the phone itself - it's all about the apps.

Besides, Xcode is free anyway, as it should be. That's not what the $99 pays for (though I have yet to figure out what it DOES pay for.) Similarly, Microsoft gives away the XNA toolkit free to encourage development on their platforms. Third party development is quite literally the lifeblood of any operating system or gaming platform, so no, I don't believe that $99 is a good price simply to allow me to develop for the iPhone.

To be fair, I'd probably be less hostile to the $99 fee if I'd made any money whatsoever from my app. So far, though, I haven't seen a single cent, and my interactions with Apple have been nothing but frustrating.

Overall I still greatly enjoyed the development process and working with the iPhone, but it's frustrating that Apple seems to be nothing but a monumental road block when it comes to releasing and marketing a finished product.

Posted 2 years ago #

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