A fast, easy to use, free, and community supported 2D game engine
Hi All,
We have received a complaint from Lodsys in reference to our iOS apps having a link to the app store for the purpose of cross promoting apps. Has anyone responded to such a complaint from Lodsys? We are attempting to figure out what we need to do. We are a 2 person team (married), so they are in fact coming after the little guy.
Here is a link to our apps:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/my-black-dog-books-llc/id380883718
actinism
Member
someone at toucharcade got one too: http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=100387
They are not just targeting apps using the in-app purchase API anymore. They are also claiming infringement on any app with a link to the app store.
I found this website with tons of information about all the on going Lodsys legal activity:
http://www.groklaw.net/search.php?query=lodsys&keyType=phrase&datestart=&dateend=&topic=0&type=all&author=0&mode=search
This is all a bluff, I'm not a lawyer but I know here in the UK you have to pay an administrative fee to take someone to court, so even if they are lawyers and can save the money on the lawyers themselves, they would probably need to pay the administrative fee, and I guess their strategy is to send this threat to thousands of people, so I am sure their intention is not to take everyone to court, that would be too expensive even for them.
I do not believe this is a bluff. Lodsys is apparently well funded and not afraid go to after the big guys (Rovio, EA, HP, Take Two Interactive, etc). I have contacted several developers and this is something to take seriously. Moreover, It seems Apple and Google are doing nothing to give App Developers 'coverage' to aid in legal costs. What they are doing may be helpful in the long term, but in the meantime us App Developers are getting sued with little to no way to defend ourselves.
Here is a good article to read that basically states, if Apple or Google do not provide 'coverage' to aid in legal costs it is better to settle and purchase a license from Lodsys:
http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/cost-efficient-way-for-app-developers.html
Much of my information is coming from this article and a 30 minute talk I just had with a very large App Developer who has made direct contact with Apple and Google patent lawyers and has also received the same infringement claim from Lodsys.
This is from a lawyer I contacted time ago, here in the UK (I assume would be similar in the US):
In a simple case it's fairly straight forwards (eg, court fee for issuing claim £70, allocation questionnaire £35, hearing fee £150, enforcing judgment £55)
So I don't think Lodsys or anyone is going to pay thousands of those administrative fees. I could understand if they only target the big ones, but it's clear they are targeting everyone. But yeah, I may be wrong, of course.
The biggest problem I've seen is that lodsys wants you (us) to pay a royalty on all of the people who purchased another app after following a link from your (our) app. But there's no actual way to track that...! I could be mis-informed though.
I hope apple's request to be a co-defendant on one of the bigger lawsuits pans out. You're right though, in the short term there's little there to help you.
@wilczarz, Lodsys patent is only registered in the US as far as I know, so it affects to anyone worldwide selling in the US App Store.
There is a say, "it's to good to be true", well, I think it also applies to "it's so absurd to be true".
Lodsys strategy is to threat thousands, that way someone will fall and pay them, as it's happening.
As I say, I will be worry when they start getting people into court, if they do. And if they do, it's only profitable for them to sue big ones, no small developers, if you make numbers, they will pay more on administrative fees that they could probably take from small developers.
But I don't blame anyone paying off them, treating small developers, like @cjkeeme, they are threatening families. I'm also a solo developer with family and kids, so my blood boils when I see people like these trying to get advantage of any one.
I am not recommending not to pay them, I'm just sharing my thoughts, and my feeling is their intention is not to take into court anyone, because they cannot win, and they cannot afford to pay thousands of administration fees. I personally would ignore any communication of them, as responding to them is also a way to acknowledge the issue.
If I were to receive those threats, I would contact Apple before I contact Lodsys (if ever).
I really hope that after this is settled (by Apple), all the developers who got those threats will band together and sue Lodsys.
(not to mention that all of the current Patent Laws need to be re-written from scratch, because the current laws of Patents are ridiculous and stupid)
Anyone consider removing links from apps to avoid such trouble?
Yes, I've actually recommended it to my clients. IMO, the links to the store just aren't worth the potential cost and hassle while this is going on. For now we just display a "See our other apps" kind of message, with no link.
While I don't think they could win a court case, they could still bleed you dry with legal fees, especially if you're a small developer. Also, it's easy to say "ignore them if they contact you" but most companies aren't going to ignore a legal threat.
Rather than incur any legal costs, it's better to just steer clear of the issue altogether until someone bigger squashes them. Apple, with their $76B in the bank should step up to the plate. Lodsys' actions set a bad precedent and they should be handled in a way that discourages others from following in their footsteps.
If their case is as legally groundless as it appears, Lodsys should be forced to pay reparations to everyone they've harassed over this.
I think the correct approach on this, is forwarding the complaint from Lolsys to Apple, and then forget about it.
The is NO chance, that Lolsys will sue thousands of small developers. If they are about to do anything, they will sue one of the major companies to get a verdict they can use against the rest. In that case, Apple will either go the whole way against them, or settle. In any ways, the small developer will NOT be involved.
Worst thing that could happen, is that Apple tells us to change certain aspects of our applications.
So while it certainly is an option to panic, and run around screaming, there really is no need.
@clarus I respect your decision, but what happens to the thousand of apps using InApp Purchase? I understand removing a link is an easy option I myself would consider, but if you have a freemiun app and your income comes from the InApp sales, then Lodsys is also forcing you to remove the app (that wouldn't actually solve previous sales) or pay them.
Also and this is cos I'm not a lawyer, what legal fees can they bleed you dry before taking you to court? My limited understanding is that only fees are if they take you to court, and actually the administrative fees are paid only for the one making the claim, but before that, you should be perfectly able to ignore them at no cost. But as I say, I'm not a lawyer so if anyone with better knowledge on this could share, that would be appreciated.
what legal fees can they bleed you dry before taking you to court?
Have you ever hired a lawyer? You'll spend many $thousands on one for even a simple case. I'd never deal with a legal case of any kind without one, and most companies (more than 1 or 2 people) wouldn't either, including making the decision to ignore someone who's threatening you with legal action. It's not the verdict that's the issue in this case, it's the amount of your time (which has value) and legal fees that would go into handling this that I see as a "money pit."
I agree about the in-app purchase scenario. I wouldn't pull that since it has more value than a link to the App Store.
Nice article:
Sorry, another interesting link, letter from Apple to Lodsys:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2011/may/23/apple-hits-lodsys-patent-claim
http://www.scribd.com/doc/56087990/Lodsys-Final-May-23-2011
Apple talks about the four patents Lodsys is claiming.
It's a win-win situation for lawyers in both sides!!
I guess for anyone involved directly (it's easy to speak when we are not involved directly I have to say, touching wood...) maybe this "Electronic Frontier Foundation" is a way to go, as they are a nonprofit organization:
http://www.eff.org/
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/07/patent-trolls-drive-app-developers-u-s-market
wilczarz
Member
I agree that the moment you receive a letter from Lodsys, you start loosing money. But I'd rather rot in prison than pay these scumbags off.
It's shocking however, how little help we can get being enrolled in Apple dev program. Google seems no better, btw.
@cjkeeme, @robert, @anyone involved, please keep us informed about the progress of your fights.
This is one link we need to divulge to anyone affected: https://w2.eff.org/patent/wp.php
letmeknow
Member
What if you guys just ignore Lodsys's email ? Does what Lodsys want is to remove your app from Apple's US App Store? and you guys believe Apple will do so ?
How about writing a letter back to Lodsys, somethings like : as far as I know, there is an unsolved case about these patents between you guys and Apple, Google. Because of that/ As consequence, I/We won't take any actions until things are clear (to me/us).
Is it good enough?
SF_Ex
Member
I'm also not a lawyer but I think ignoring any letter is not a smart move. What exactly is Lodsys demanding from you guys? Is the letter you received as vague as the one linked @actinism posted above?
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=100387
Because this letter doesn't sound like Lodsys is trying to "kill" your app, they are just asking for a license fee or something like this (which still sucks).
In the BBC article posted by @itlgames it says:
"For each patent that they offer to license, the Texan company "is seeking 0.575% of US revenue (all income is in principle generated in the US because Android and iOS app stores are both registered there) over for the period of the notice letter to the expiration of the patent (they have a duration of 20 years), plus applicable past usage", as set out in Lodsys blog."
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14682700
Two comments about this quote:
1. if paying max. 2% of your US revenue is really the worst case here, than involving a lawyer will cost a whole lot more (unless your app is REALLY successful). And unless they also ask for something else, like an administration fee or something like this.
2. I think there's a mistake in the article: I think "US revenue" is really only the revenue you make with customers from the US and not the total revenue you make from the app store. I don't have a source for this (I'm also not an accountant) but I've read a couple of times, that apps aren't available in all county-specific app store for tax reasons. So the revenue you make in say Japan can be separated from the US revenue and should be treated differently.
Does anyone have a better understanding of this?
Don't get me wrong: I think the entire idea of (US) software patents is a really bad idea and goes fundamentally against the general mindset that I've experienced in developer communities (where people share ideas and try to help each other, not try to profit from each other). But a philosophical discussion about "software patents are bad" doesn't help you if you have to answer within a couple of days.
So if you're letter is indeed like the one linked above, you could ask for a clarification of the actual licensing terms that Lodsys is proposing?
2% of your US revenue might be so small that they don't bother with you. If they do, it's still a relatively small amount of money. And it isn't very heroic but unless you have good lawyer friends this might be the best way to get them of you back?
Please keep us posted if you can and good luck!
Quote from the EFF website:
The patent system is intended to promote innovation, but it seems pretty clear to us that here it’s doing just the opposite. While we are disappointed that the proposed patent reform legislation does nothing to curb this problem, we will continue to monitor the situation and provide resources to as many developers as we can. To help us do this, we request that attorneys licensed to practice in the United States who are willing to and interested in advising targets of trolls join EFF’s Cooperating Attorneys’ List.
Another quote from http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/17/lodsys-vs-apple-devs-eff-helps-us-dig-deeper/:
Though it's very unlikely that Cupertino won't offer assistance, devs will also be able to turn to EFF for advice, where they may even be paired with pro bono patent attorneys.
It looks like they can give free legal advise to any one involved.
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