Looking for a programmer to partner with, graphics and all audio DONE already!

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Looking for a programmer to partner with, graphics and all audio DONE already!

(53 posts) (24 voices)

Started 9 months ago by appsolutecreations
Latest reply from Steve Oldmeadow

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appsolutecreations
Member

I have put alot of time in developing this idea and all the aspects involved in the game....music, art, animations, concept, and some programming even....
The game is loosely based on an old VERY SUCCESSFUL game from the 80s. The game is perfect for Ipad and Iphone and can quite possibly be the super mario quality game for the iphone. And I have no hesitation in saying that! I also have resources for advertising the game, because the game doesn't just make you millions over night. I have already in place a ton of web traffic, and plan on shooting commercials, creating bumper stickers, just to name some of the wild ideas I have in place to move forward on as soon as I have someone reliable and trustworthy working with me.

I also have planned to update the game each month with new characters, new levels, and best of all NEW GAMEPLAY MODES, that are all sure to keep people coming back. I am an avid gamer with thorough understanding of the concepts that make a game popular. I'm not just in it for the money but also for the love and passion I have for gaming.

I need a trust worthy programmer who can take this journey with me as an equal share partner who will make this concept come to life once and for all. The programming would take about 2 months to complete at MOST and can quite possibly be done by someone without much experience. Most important is I need someone I can trust who wont bail on the project. I am putting 7 months of work (from my side) in your hands!

I know you will love the concept and once you see it on the screen you will be hooked. Please message me at catalin918@gmail.com to provide me with any questions you may have as well as a bio about yourself. This game literally has MORE potential than angry birds and I can't wait to show you why!

What is left to complete?
Some simple AI or implementing the enemies
Inputting level coordinates into program (maps are done in tiled)
Power ups
Achievements (you just need to make my list of 25 of them work)

I'm sure there are a few more loose ends here and there but this is the bulk of the work remaining.

Posted 9 months ago #
Ricardo1980
Member

Some questions:

Did you write a Game Design Document?

Who is going to manage the project? In case you are the manager, do you have a plan (roadmap, milestones, tasks...)? What software do you use for this?

Are you going to sell the game by your own or you will use a game publisher to let them sell the game?

Is a custom level editor needed?

Do you have any formal education in game design or similar? Otherwise, tell me some game design books you read.

Do you have any real experience designing games? In this case, can I see you other games?

Thanks a lot.

Posted 9 months ago #
appsolutecreations
Member

Game Design document, no.

I am managing the project of course and as stated of course I have a plan.

I am selling the game on my own through apple store.

Custom level editor...no.

I am an experienced web designer / photographer and have been managing my own business for the past 6 years. I have thorough knowledge of photoshop and illustrator. More importantly I have the talent to draw. And even MORE importantly I have a passion for games as I have been playing them daily since I was 5! I know what works and what WILL work on the handheld medium.

This is my first game and from what we have put on screen so far, it looks awesome!

I am open to suggestions always and welcome ideas from my partner that will be chosen. I am here not to waste anyone's time but to be successful. And no I'm not just another fool who thinks if I draw two black sticks on a white background I will get rich!

Posted 9 months ago #
Ricardo1980
Member

Doing a game without a game design document is a very bad idea, except if your game is extremely small and one-man-program.

By the way, is App Store rather than Apple Store.

Posted 9 months ago #
toadkick
Member

I see posts like this from time to time, and I usually stay silent about it, but in the interest of helping out people who aspire to make games I feel I should say a couple of things.

First of all, It is nearly impossible for a non-programmer to estimate how much time it will take for a programmer to finish a task, let alone an entire game. In fact, it is difficult for programmers to do this accurately most of the time, especially inexperienced ones. How do you know that it will only take 2 months for a programmer to write your game? Especially not knowing ahead of time who your programmer is, and what his skill set looks like?

Secondly, I can promise you that if you want to have a game that even has a fighting chance in the app store, 2 months is only a drop in the bucket, and will not be nearly enough time to create something polished and fun. Tiny Wings, by all accounts a "simple" game, took 7 months to develop. And Tiny Wings is an outlier; most games, even some polished ones, will never see anywhere near that sort of success, or will even generate more than a few sales a day.

Thirdly, having all of the art done does not equal a 50% complete game. First up, how do you know what "all of the art is" until you've actually started implementing your game? It's a safe bet that once you do get a programmer on board, a lot of the art that you have done before hand will at best need to be restructured due to technical aspects of the game, and at worst need to be completely redone. You will also probably find that you actually need to generate much more art than you previously anticipated. What about level building and design? How long will it take to build each level? How do you know that your levels will be fun? Level design is not easy, requires a lot of iteration, and is in general very time consuming. I'd wager that at this point in time, your game is actually only 5-10% complete, and that's being generous.

Fourthly, a GDD is okay as a jumping off point, but IMO is all but unnecessary. It's nice to have a written version of your vision and plan, but once you start developing your game you will find that a lof of assumptions you made when writing the GDD no longer hold up. More important than a GDD is a working prototype. Get it up and running as soon as possible, quick and dirty like. Don't worry about it being pretty. Don't know how to program? Use one of the tools available to non-programmers. Try to prototype your ideas using a tool like Game Maker. The prototype doesn't have to necessarily be on the target platform (the iPhone in this case). The only way you know if your ideas will work is if you can actually play them, and find out if they are fun.

One last thing. If you were planning a 50/50 profit split with your programmer, you are going to be severely disappointed. You might have better luck with a 75/25 split in the programmer's favor, but only maybe. Programming is not easy, and your programmer will be spending much more time and effort than you think doing his job, especially if you want it done well.

Posted 9 months ago #
toadkick
Member

My apologies if I come off sounding like a jerk. That is not my intention, nor is it my intention to discourage anyone. I want nothing more than for there to be far more good indie developers making profitable games. But at this point there is so much competition that even getting noticed is going be difficult. There are more games coming out every day on the iPhone than I can count on my fingers and toes. And now that the big boys have a foothold in the market, the threshold for polish and execution has been raised very high. Only a few game developers are actually making money in the iOS market, and everyone else is making nothing, or close to it. Find a programmer who wants to do it because he also has a passion for making games, and will do anything to make it happen, not one who wants a paycheck. Get to know him, well. You will go through many good and bad times together while developing a game, and if the bond isn't strong then it won't happen. You will not find a programmer who will jump on board and suddenly make all of your dreams come true. You would probably be better off learning to program yourself, or convincing one of your friends who might have an aptitude for it to learn.

Posted 9 months ago #
phil_me_up
Member

Just to wade in here - there are a lot of good points made above but I think it should be clear that however unlikely, there is a chance that the next game any one of us builds could be a huge success. If nothing else, it's a great sense of personal achievement.

The OP has included a fare amount of detail (much better than the usual "Need a developer to make a angry birds clone" we get on here and I think that he/she has clearly put in a lot of effort already, which should be rewarded. However, toadKick is absolutely right in saying that 2 Months is probably an underestimate. This isn't a problem but is something to be aware of.

Also, whilst the OP has high hopes for the game they have been absolutely fare in saying that the developer will get a share of the profits (be that $50 or $5,000,000) rather than "looking to pay xxxx amount". Lots of people are here doing this on a pro level but I'm sure there are plenty more who are looking for their next project and, like me, has problems really visualising what they want to make. In this case, they might want to work with someone on a project like this for potentially no income.

I don't want to p**s anyone off here but I do want to let the OP know that they can make their game and it can be a success. Sure, design documents and the promise of money at the end will help but if you wanna make a game - go and do it (just promise not to make a cheap rip-off of something else please!)

Posted 9 months ago #
toadkick
Member

@phil_me_up: All fair points. Like I said, it is not my intention to discourage anyone. If anything I hope it only strengthens their resolve, and makes them want to prove me wrong.

And you are right, a lot of people doing this want to do it for a sense of personal achievement. IMO, that is a "right" reason to do it. Not that making money is a "wrong" reason, but if that is the main goal, then there are likely a of lot of disappointments ahead. And, it's fair to say that there is a chance that something one of us builds could be a huge success. Many people on this forum have had success to all sorts of varying degrees. But again, they are the exceptions, and if you go into this expecting to get rich, or even just to make a living doing it, there is a better chance than not that you will be disappointed.

My point about giving the programmer a good share was not specifically pointed at the OP, but rather anyone who needs to find a programmer for their game. Most posts that I see on here for people looking for a programmer severely underestimate the amount of time and work it takes to program a game. If you can find a programmer who is willing to work for potentially no income, because he just loves and wants to do it, then you are one of the lucky ones, and you should hang on to that programmer for dear life.

WIth regard to your last statement: That is exactly right. Just do it. Talking about making games and writing about making games is great, but the only way games get made is when people actually just do it.

Posted 9 months ago #
toadkick
Member

argh double post

Posted 9 months ago #
appsolutecreations
Member

Thank you for your replies.

I understand all your points though they do not relate to my post.

To respond to some of your questions / concerns.

How do I know how long this will take?
That was the estimate I was given by a programmer I was working with who I love but unfortunately got a promotion in his day job which came along with increased hours.

How do I know the art is done?
Because we have the levels and characers on screen. Sure some tweaks need to be made here and there but I can do that VERY quickly.

You mention angry birds took 7 months?
I have spent 6 months on creating my concept, my story, my art, my music, etc. I would say I'm pretty much on track providing I find a good programmer to work with.

How do I know levels will be fun?
Because unlike many programmers and others who are in this for the money as you state, I played video games since I was 4 years old now I'm 31. I know what works and what doesn't. This game is simple and fun and the gameplay doesn't even focus around the map specifically. You would understand if you saw the concept. Please don't make broad statements about gaming because what is true for one game isn't true for another.

You mention the GDD?
Not aplicable here but thanks. Yes the game is that simple I bet even you can understand it.

You mention the programmer does most of the work?
I beg to differ. It's funny how programmers don't seem to have respect for the amount of work that goes into creating the look of a game and the music. Why don't you sit down, draw something then bring that into your computer, trace it, color it etc and let me know how that goes for you before diminishing an artist's work.

Further, I mentioned advertising which seems to be something you completely dismiss. The success of a game is very much based on the kind of audience you bring to it. You can have a great game but no one will know about it. Being that I am in the media business I have the unique ability to push web traffic as well as run and shoot ads.

So before you come out and try to ish on my post, get your facts straight. It seems that your way of thinking is the reason you haven't created anything successful yet and are on this board posting nonsense because you have nothing else to do with your time.

I know what I need done....what needs to be done in the future....what I have accomplished so far. You post on my thread to try to kill it knowing absolutely nothing about this. Yet you posted anyway. Good job.

I will find the person who has their mind in the right place to make this a successful game because I know it's a good game based on the feedback of people (yes a test group) from the ages 7-30, and someone will see this and they too will want to be successful. How am I so sure? Because I know how to market successfully as I have done it with dozens of websties that I own. Marketing an app is similar to marketing a site and I have been more than successful with that.

So thanks for your post anyway.

Now who wants to work to build something better than angry birds at last!!!

Posted 8 months ago #
Ernesto Hernandez
Member

"Because unlike many programmers and others who are in this for the money as you state, I played video games since I was 4 years old now I'm 31."

What gives you the idea that because people do this for a living means that they don't play and love games? I'm fairly sure most programmers are just as avid gamers.

I do much of the art for our games. So I know how much work that is, but you can't discount the work of a programmer. Try spending hours upon hours looking through code that already works just to try to find anywhere that you can optimize, so your game will run at 60 frames per second even on super crappy hardware. Of course it varies from game to game, but claiming one is more work than the other is dumb in my opinion.

Anyways, good luck with your game.

Posted 8 months ago #
toadkick
Member

My apologies if my posts were perceived as an attack on you, your skills/talent, or your game. They weren't meant to be hurtful. I tried (unsuccessfully) to offer you potentially helpful advice. I will not make that mistake again. My facts are straight. I've been doing this for a long time, and I have shipped successful titles on several platforms. I have worked with very talented people across the industry. I know how much work goes into making a game across every discipline, start to finish, because I have done it several times. I've been an avid gamer since the first time I picked up a controller when I was a wee little lad. Making games is difficult. Making a good one is even harder, even if it is a simple game. You didn't read my post thoughtfully, and I can see by your response that you missed every single point I made. It stings a little bit that you chose to insult me, but I'll get over it. From here on out I will keep my advice/opinions to myself. Good luck with your game.

Posted 8 months ago #
Birkemose
Moderator

Wow, I almost felt humble when I read toadkick's post. Almost :)

To OP.
I am sorry, but you really have a bad attitude. You actually get some serious advice and food for thought, and all you can come up with, is being all girly-pissed about it?
You really have to do much much better than that, if you want to beat AB.

Posted 8 months ago #
cocos
Member

@toadkick It hurts to see you are bleeding. Indeed you have offer an honest, balanced opinion base on your deep experience and knowledge. You have helped hundreds of people on this forum. We support you and we are thankful! And suddenly stranger with big ego and no programming skills walks in and insults you and others.

@appsolutecreations - If you are so sure, so convinced of the success of your game just pay for 2 months of development to someone and grab those millions for yourself. This forum is for helping people. Mutual respect is important and mandatory here. The fact that someone does not share your vision does not give you any rights to unload your anger and frustration. None whatsoever.

I share @toadkick opinion. I am professional programmer too. I know how much time goes to different programing projects!

@appsolutecreations - We all be happy to see your success, we also have dreams. But better change your attitude and learn to listen.
You will get nowhere with your current behavior.

Posted 8 months ago #
toadkick
Member

@cocos: thanks for the kind words :) Ha, perhaps I was a little dramatic in my last post. No one likes to be insulted, but again, I'll get over it. There is a lot of talent on this forum, and I wish that everyone here putting their heart and effort into trying to make fun games could at least have enough success to continue trying to make fun games and pay their bills at the same time. I'm happy if I've helped anybody since discovering this fantastic engine and community, and I'll continue to try to help where I can. I doubt though that I'll try to offer broad advice again unless asked for it, as I'm finding most people just won't understand or relate to the advice or the intent behind it until they go through the entire process, and learn the lessons for themselves.

Posted 8 months ago #
Birkemose
Moderator

@toad
I think it would be a shame if you didn't want to offer broad advice again. Afterall, you are one of the few inhere who actually have been inside the beast, and I am pretty sure, that quite a few inhere reads your words several times. I know I do.

When I first joined this forum, I was absolutely overwhelmed with the positive response, the absolutely amazing free framework ( sorry Chipmunk Pro ), and the quality of the posts inhere. I think the admins are doing an outstanding job in keeping this place a serious developers forum. And they should. Dont wash it out.
Inhere, you actually get advice from guys who are battle-tested. Guys who made it, and in my case, guys who failed ;)
But it all sums up to, that this is by far the best free tools I have ever come across, and the best community supporting it.

Posted 8 months ago #
varedis
Moderator

You mention the GDD?
Not aplicable here but thanks. Yes the game is that simple I bet even you can understand it.

So how are you going to explain the game to your programmer? How are you going to document your algorithms that you want to incorporate in a random loot drop for example, how are you going to show the programmer how to lay out the HUD and the process through the game scene. Or are you simply going to send them 78 one page Word documents and 129 screenshots and expect them to trawl through it all and find the correct information?

No document that contains all the information necessary for your programmer to examine means they won't be able to follow your idea for the game and will waste their time and yours.

Posted 8 months ago #
Zerpico
Member

Totally agree with @Birkemose & @toadkick, you are both bang on, inoffensive and have clear points to make, constructive and clear.

The OP however, bang out of order with some of your comments and responses to helpful suggestions and advice.

I've been in the games industry for years, since it started on the C64 and spectrum basically and before that unprofessionally. I make no assumptions when I read or post on this site, it's a fantastic forum with a wealth of information from some great people. With my self learnt wealth of knowledge and years behind me I never stopped learning or became arrogant, I listen to and read what's said first, see it from other people point of view, then reply, as most of the time the replies you getting are from people who want to help. I know a lot, but I can learn a damn site more and I never stop doing so, gratefully and respectfully when help is offered.

To the OP, I wish you well in your endeavour, once you change your attitude you may achieve what you desire, in the mean time you'll probably have to look elsewhere for help.

A little advice, re-read what you've said before posting, consider the response you might get from other people, ask yourself do you really want the help or just an argument, and most of all LISTEN.

Z.

Posted 8 months ago #
appsolutecreations
Member

My post was not created to ask for advice. If I needed advice I would ask for it. Or if he wanted to offer such advice he could have done it elsewhere....not on the job section of this forum where people place ads for work.

Obviously this was not intended to be "advice" as toadkick has successfully backed off now and is playing the victim role.
With comments such as:"One last thing. If you were planning a 50/50 profit split with your programmer, you are going to be severely disappointed. You might have better luck with a 75/25 split in the programmer's favor, but only maybe. Programming is not easy, and your programmer will be spending much more time and effort than you think doing his job, especially if you want it done well.",
to a thread started about me looking for a programmer. His intentions are quite obvious despite what he says now.

If this was a real life encounter and I was standing on a corner looking to hire someone (regardless of the business) and some dude comes up to me and begins offering me "advice" not even knowing what my job entails or what has been done so far, I bet you would all then side with me and say WTF why is this guy stepping in on your territory telling you how to run your business?? That is just simply something you don't do in a social setting in life or on a forum! If you want to work with me you post, if you don't you move on to another post.....simple common courtesy.

If anyone else here feels my original reply to toadkick is arrogant or anything like that I ask you...how arrogant is it to come into someone's job post and essentially bash the project by offering up some advice that no one asked for? HOw would you feel if this was done to you? LAst I checked this section says "jobs" not "advice". Toadkick knows nothing about me or my project.....what I know and don't know.....who is he to come into my thread and give me advice? I've owned and operated a successful business for the past 10 years making well over 5 million dollars by the time I am now 30 years old. I know how to advertise and how to operate a business all skills I can apply to advertising my app once it's done. The work doesn't start and stop with programming....that's just the beginning. You obviously all know this guy toadkick and I am obviously new here and don't know this dude from a hole in the wall. I will extend him the same courtesy he presented me with when starting this thread.

One last thing perhaps next time you decide to offer up some all knowing advice in a place where it doesn't belong, the least you can do is say who the hell you are! "Hi I'm Steven Spielberg and I want to give you some advice on directing your film if I may" for example. Then maybe you will get some respect regardless of the place you post your advice. This is advice on how to behave in a social setting....from me to you.

Posted 8 months ago #
psykano
Member

Not touching this thread with a 3.048-meter pole-OH SHI-

Posted 8 months ago #
Ernesto Hernandez
Member

@psykano oh no you di'int!

Posted 8 months ago #
Ricardo1980
Member

@varedis: Absolutely agree! The most difficult developing software is not HOW, but WHAT. It does not matter how well you program if you don't program what your customer/partner want.

BTW, what does OP mean?

Posted 8 months ago #
itlgames
Moderator

@appsolutecreations with all due respects you started the war flame, reading your post, I can see how we programmers can get offended with some of your comments, ok, I have history to misunderstood or jump too fast into conclusions, and English is not my first language, but that's why I read yours few times.

Basically you assumed programming is not the big job, well, it is, and it's the last stage, which makes even more difficult for us as we have more pressure.

You also assumed we are all here for the money, well, wrong again, most of us here have our day jobs, doing whatever we do to pay our bills, then we dedicate time for our games.

In your defence I only can say that we programmers are sometimes bit suspicious of people offering jobs here, and that is for a reason, believe me. But I can't see why anyone here has offended you.

Now, cool down and start over again, you obviously started with the wrong foot!

Posted 8 months ago #
Birkemose
Moderator

OP means Original Poster, and it is quite funny, that OP in his last answer, offers advice on how to behave in a social setting.
Man, that dude needs to take a chill pill.

Posted 8 months ago #
toadkick
Member

@appsolutecreations: I backed off because I could see that I hurt your feelings, and I realized that my unsolicited advice was perhaps not very tactful. I'm not playing the role of a victim or any other role for that matter. I don't know what you think my intentions were, but you are implying that I am looking for work and am trying to milk some hapless sucker for a few pennies then you are wrong. I make games because it's what I love doing. After all these years, if I was in it for the money, I would've gone elsewhere because let me tell you, there are easier ways to make money than making games. My post was in fact intended to be advice, intended to hopefully manage your expectations in both looking for a programmer and in starting the process of collaborating on a game with someone you have never met before. I have already apologized to you, and believe me, I deeply regret having said a word on the matter. Not just because you continue to insult me, but because I am worried about how others will perceive me and/or this forum after stumbling upon this post. I never "bashed" you, or your business, or your skills, or your game. Your post showed up on the main page, along with all of the other posts. It didn't occur to me that this was posted to a "jobs" section or any specific subsection for that matter.

This whole thing has spiraled out of control past the point of ridiculousness, and I can't see how tossing around insults is going to help anybody, but if that's what you'd like to continue to do then feel free. At this point though I think it would benefit everybody if we could just take a few deep breaths and let it go already.

Posted 8 months ago #
itlgames
Moderator

@toadkick no worries, no matter if this post was on jobs or any specific section, this is still a developers forum and anyone can have their advise, opinion, suggestions, as long we respect each others, and you were respectful to him.

@appsolutecreations, another problem with your post is, it looks as if you were making a favour to the programmer, when in any case, it's a mutual favour, you "need" a programmer, and a programmer "needs" a job.

Posted 8 months ago #
alfaro
Member

@appsolutecreations, lets say you are right and @toadkick shouldn't have replied with his advice(don't worry @toadkick most of us here appreciate your comments), the problem is that you replied in an aggresive style insulting people.

Like you say you are "new" here and obviously not a developer, so you might not know the reasons people here is so skeptical with this kind of partnership, so just for your information, we have seen many "jobs" like this one from people who really have no idea what it takes to make a game and just wants the programmer to develop their super cool, refreshing and millionary idea (yes we all have our own) in no time.

You say you need a trust worthy programmer but you know.... programmers are people too, so the programmer needs to trust you too, how are you going to make programmers trust you if you react with agression and insults at the very first sign of adversity?. Something as simple as ok I will take your advice in consideration would have saved 20+ off topic posts.

By the way I'm pretty sure 95+% of the developers are avid gamers since a very young age, and we all have our millionary ideas because we all "know what works and what WILL work on the handheld medium".

Posted 8 months ago #
appsolutecreations
Member

I completely agree that this has spiraled out of control and we are completely off base with the original post I put up. That is part of the reason I am angry here because my topic was completely changed by toadkick. I am direct and to the point at all times. I'm not here to waste anyone's time and this has already wasted too much of everyone's.

In my original post I never said anything remotely along the lines that the programming aspect is EASY. I don't know where anyone is getting that from. What I did was outline what still needs to be done. I stated 2 months because that is what I was told from other programmers, as I noted in my thread. You all took that as an assumption that I am saying programming is easy? I don't even understand where that is coming from honestly.

I know that everyone thinks they have the next best thing because they thought of it. I'm not new in the media industry so I can understand that. But unless you contact me directly and discuss the idea...how would you even know what the concept is to be able to offer beneficial critique?

Toadkick I apologize if you found me insulting but please understand that it was a reply to what I felt to be an insult. I have never been criticized about doing something by someone who doesn't know anything about what it is I'm trying to do. In my field, constructive criticism is always positive and it's how I improve my work every day. But constructive criticism only comes after my work is shown. Again I refer back to what I said before which is what if someone did this to you? If you posted a job and somone hijacked the thread with "construcive criticism" I bet you wouldn't like it very much, even more so if you had no clue who that person actually was.

I am here because I so strongly believe in this game for so many reasons, one of which is based on my test group who loved the concept, characters, and graphics. I don't just do something to waste my time because time is money. If I didn't know this would be successful I wouldn't even pursue it.

Let's all hit reset please and get back to the business at hand. This thread is not benefitting anyone at this point. My apologies if I came off hard on my reply back to toadkick. I hope we all understand where I was coming from and that we can move on at this point.

Thanks

Posted 8 months ago #
Birkemose
Moderator

Apps, fair enough.

The advice toad offered, might not apply to you, but that doesn't mean his thoughts are not useful.
Next time you are offered advice you don't feel you can use, please be a bit more mature about it.

And good luck with that game of yours.

Posted 8 months ago #
AkumaStreak
Member

Get the Video Plugin

Posted 8 months ago #

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